Horsley's blog

Hungarian ancestry continued and more!

2011-07-10T01:10:00.000-07:00

These two cousins who share a common ancestor with me are both have lived in Romania. However they believe the link is through their Hungarian ancestry. One cousins mother has taken the test and has Hungarian ancestry so it is now a waiting game to see whether this theory is correct!

A new cousin is a 5th cousin from Lithuania. They believe their ancestry to be 100% Lithuanian, but given the history of that region, I am not surprised that we now have a connection to that country.

A new distant cousin with Hungarian ancestry has popped up with the new features at 23andme, as well as a relative that was born in Switzerland (5th cousin) who is yet to respond.
Had one decline who declared their ancestry to be near/middle east and has Jewish name and haplogroups. Wouldn't surprise me if our link was via some Jewish convert years ago from Central Europe.

Sweden matches are still high but hover around 5.6cM or under. Not sure what to make of this, could be ancient. Danish matches have increased but still in same levels as Sweden. Latvia has appeared through a mixed Swedish/Danish/Latvian at 5.5cM.

Hungarian relatives!

2011-03-17T04:11:00.000-07:00

I am so thrilled to have discovered that I have shared ancestry with two people who are of Hungarian descent! These two people are themselves 5th cousins and they match in the same location as my mother, making all three of them (and me!) related via shared ancestors from the Hungarian region c. 1780. It's always a gamble predicting a time frame for these relationships but I'm just happy to have found some relatives to support what the biogeographical tests were saying! Thanks to both of them for all their help!
Latest Ancestry Finder updates include someone who is Hungarian/Croatian/Bosnian/Bosnian and another who is Ukrainian/Polish, plus a mystery Romanian/Unknown.
Given my new cousins have Romanian ancestry themselves and come from Transylvania, I'm wondering if this mystery match also has some Hungarian ancestry.
My mother also gets quite high scores on Eurogenes to Central Europe/Hungary.
I'm sticking to my Galicia emmigrant theory!

Yet more evidence for Eastern European ancestry!

2011-02-20T12:44:00.000-08:00

Running my relatives 23andme data through Dr Doug McDonald's BGA programme, he says:
"The most probable single population is Orkney. However, there is sufficient mixing of eastern European to make the spot on themap near Wolfen, Germany."
So the 23andme data supports what we're finding with the deCODEme data which is brilliant!

Below is a map of all my ancestral locations.

German relatives on both sides!

2011-01-25T11:33:00.000-08:00

I have just discovered that we have German ancestors via the same German family on HIR but on both sides of their family! The Dad and son share on Chr 5 in the same place but the father's segment is longer and the Mum and other brother on Chr 18 again with the mother's segment being slightly longer!
Geographic areas:
Bohemia, Germany, Weimar, Neustadt an der Orla, Neunhofen, Wettin, Arnshaugh, Lobenstein, Schwerstedt, Buttstädt, Querfurt, Gross-Ellguth, Ligota Wielka, Silesia, Schlesien, Neuhof, Frankenstein, Bohemia, Germany, Weimar, Neustadt an der Orla, Neunhofen, Wettin, Arnshaugh, Lobenstein, Schwerstedt, Buttstädt, Querfurt, Gross-Ellguth, Ligota Wielka, Silesia, Schlesien, Neuhof, Frankenstein, Ząbkowice Śląskie, Apolda, Jena, Leipzig, Bremberg, Żarek, Taltitz, Plauen , Apolda, Jena, Leipzig, Bremberg, Żarek, Taltitz, Plauen.

History Lesson!

2011-01-23T01:25:00.000-08:00

Ok so my history of Europe is rubbish for anything before World War One. But doing my research into Galicia it says that it was part of the Austrian Empire. Having no real idea where that covered, I resorted to Wikipedia (not the best source I know) and it says that the Austrian Empire lasted from 1804-1867 and covered Galicia, Hungary, Croatia and Montenegro to name a few countries.
Why is this significant? Because we also have a 6th cousin who is half Croatian/Montenegran! Ok so the other half of their ancestry is unknown, so I can't go jumping the gun here, but what if there was a connection thanks to this? Although given the link would probably be about 500 years ago I guess that stuffs that theory, BUT Croatia is next door to Hungary and I'm sure migrations must have happened. Frustratingly, there is also on Ancestry Finder, someone who is probably a 4th cousin who is half US half Austrian....how nice it would be to find out about them!

A bit of geography!

2011-01-17T02:32:00.000-08:00

After discovering two relatives sharing on an X chromosome lived only 400 miles apart, it seems to me feasible that our common ancestor would have migrated around the region and their descendants would have done the same. I have looked into Ukrainian migrants to North America to see when they arrived and where they came from. One website, "Every Culture", states that between 1891 and 1914 170,000 Ukrainians settled in Canada from the provinces of Galicia and Bukovyna. Galicia is currently divided between Poland and Ukraine, not far from Bialoboki. The area has had a turbulent past and between the 13th-18th centuries it was controlled by Tatars and peoples of Altaic and Uralic stock from Central Asia.
In America, 350,000 began to arrive in 1877 and came from Lemko (which was part of Galicia) and the Transcarpathian region. Galicia, Bukovyna and Transcarpathia are all the same same region of south west Ukraine bordering Poland and Hungary!

At last! Some proof across DNA tests?

2011-01-11T09:42:00.000-08:00

I have just discovered that using the Decodeme Genome Browser, one of my relatives' X chromosomes shares a segment at 10Mb with the Granddaughter of one of her top matches at HIR search! The segment length at HIR search would be the 23andme equivalent of around a 5th cousin...(Gedmatch suggests 4th cousin once removed) but they do not appear as relatives on 23andme because the SNPs they share are below 1000. This HIR match shares at two locations on the same chromosome too for a total segment length of 14.5cM. The family is Ukrainian. I am thrilled because my relative only shares with two other people on this region of the X and one is Polish and the other part Slavic. No other friends out of the 300 at Decodeme share in that region at 10Mb. A total of four people share with my relative at 10Mb. The 4th crosses over the end of the segment length and is of Colonial (including German), Finn and recently discovered Jewish ancestry. So do they cross where a past German or Jewish ancestor is shared?
So it would seem that whilst the Grandmother gave her Granddaughter no segments of DNA that are in common with my relative on any other chromosomes, she did pass on some shared information within her X chromosome.

*Update-I have been in touch with the person from Poland who matches on the X chromosome.

They tell me that they come from a place called Bialoboki close the the Ukrainian border! I have checked the locations of our Ukrainian relatives family, and they lived about 480 miles away!

Even more bizarre is looking at the location, it's not that far from Hungary where we have a 5th cousin-Budapest is only 332 miles away!

Matches above 800 SNPs at HIR search

2011-01-05T08:04:00.000-08:00

It seems to me that anything over 800 SNPs is pretty suggestive so let's see what matches my relative gets above 800 SNPs....
Colonial
Colonial
British 5th cousin at 23andme
Colonial 5th cousin at 23andme
German/Finn
Colonial
Jewish/German/English
Jewish/Adopted
German
Czech/Jewish/German/Colonial
Colonial
Unknown
German
Unknown
German
Colonial
British
Colonial
British
Unknown
German/Polish/Swedish
Colonial
Irish/Hungarian
Unsure
British
Ukrainian Jewish
British
Unknown
Irish
Colonial
Colonial
Colonial
Dutch
The rest are below 5cM.
So what should I make of this? Well, I think I should discount all the Colonials because they are a mix of nationalites including British, so I am left with:

British
German/Finn
German
German
German
British
British
German/Polish/Swedish
Irish/Hungarian
British
Ukrainian Jewish
British
Irish
Dutch

Nearly half have German ancestry, 4 of which have segment lengths that 23andme would classify as 5th-10th cousins, so in theory the shared ancestry would be after the Saxon invasions of England (which is always at the back of my mind with these tests). But I suppose if you have American ancestry then German ancestry is almost to be expected!

Where do my Elliots come from?

2010-12-07T06:11:00.000-08:00

There is an old saying:
"The double L and single T
Descend from Minto and Woolflee.
The double T and single L
Mark the old race in Stobs that dwell,
The single L and single T
The Eliots of St Germains be,
But double T and double L
Who they are, nobody can tell."

Mine have a more recent spelling of Elliott but further back in time it is Elliot. I have found a possible brother of my earliest ancestor on an Elliot Y DNA site-this Elliot lived at the same time, in the same parish and had the same occupation that was to feature in my Elliot line for the next 150 years. He came from Scotland and had a Scottish Y haplogroup.
Speaking to a history buff and old Elliot ally, an Armstrong, he told me that when King James I decided to get rid of the Reivers, many left for Ireland, but others stayed and were made to have miserable lives or they moved to where the money was, as did most people. He told me that many were Chapmen, people who sold textiles, and many would have gone to areas where textiles were well known, including Nottingham with it's lace industry!! Another alternative would have been sheep farmers who would move their flocks from the Borders, to Carlisle, then south.
Interesting stuff!

Ancestry Finder tables

2010-11-17T08:18:00.000-08:00

Here are the results of Ancestry Finder. It uses self reported ancestry from users of their Grandparents nationalities. So the table showing 4GP means all 4 Grandparents are the same nationality. The list can go down to 1+GP meaning it could display matches who have Grandparents from four different countries. A word of caution is that just because Grandparents were born in a certain country, it doesn't meant they are native to it. An example might be French people born in Britain. So it's best to check for more than one match. Size of cM's in important too-the closer to 5cM, the more likely it's either very old or just coincedence.

At 4GP's:Known ancestry is British and some Irish, so the first two boxes match known ancestry. Iran has featured with other people and it's only 5.1cM so either the person has some West European ancestry or it is ancient.

At 3 GPs (so 3 from same country, 1 from different) the top 5 is the same however my 7th cousin who is 1/4 Finn 3/4 Swedish now appears.

At 2GPs same top 5 but now have a match to someone who is half Swedish half Norwegian.

At 1GP same top 5 but now have a match to someone who is Danish/American/Swedish/Swedish-would love to know about them as the amount they share would make them 4th-5th cousins!!!

There are some Polish matches which seem to overlap-in one place there are two matches and they describe their Grandparents as Polish/Polish/Israel/Romania and Poland/Poland/Ukraine/Ukraine the other matches in a different place are Poland/Poland/Unknown/Unknown (half Jewish) who overlaps with an American who is English/Italian/Polish. I wonder if we all share Polish ancestors from way back as that seems to be the common country?

There is also a 7th cousin who is half southern Slavic half unknown but was born in Croatia...not sure about the migrations of the southern Slavs...I wonder if they settled in places like Hungary and mixed with central Europeans?

Relative Finder/Ancestry Finder update

2010-11-12T04:57:00.000-08:00

There is always hope when people who don't come from melting pot country's accept your invitation! All matches (unless made public) are anonymous, usually just giving haplogroups so you don't know where these cousins come from until they accept.
Well a 5th cousin from Denmark has accepted and a 7th cousin who is Swedish/Finn! So there now seems to be some Scandinavian in the mix! Sweden is 3rd highest match on Ancestry Finder for all 4 Grandparents and there is a 50% Norwegian 50% Swedish match at 2+ Grandparents.

The Danish surname is remarkably like the family surname of my unknown ancestor too...
I wonder if there is a Baltic conection....I noticed that a 4th cousin who is 1/4 Baltic German matches in the same region with other people of German or Jewish ancestry on HIR search. The people on HIR search were the equivalent of 5th-10th cousins. The Swedes lived in Latvia, the Danes in Estonia, the Germans in Latvia together with the Jews. And this is quite weird, because the analysis at Eurogenes suggested Polish and/or Baltic ancestry!!
Incedentally, the 5th cousin who is Hungarian/Romanian matches with Poles and Lithuanians.

23andme vs HIR search

2010-10-14T08:43:00.000-07:00

I was interested to see if there was a connection between what were deemed as cousins on 23andme and those on HIR search. For HIR search, Decodeme data was sent. The results are as follows:
HIR search top match: no connection via 23andme 9.30GD
Match 2: yet to look up 9.00GD
Match 3: no connection 8.90
Match 4: 5th cousin 8.70
Match 5: 5th cousin 8.20
Match 6: 5th cousin 8.10
Match 7: no connection 8.00
Match 8: don't know who user is 7.70
Match 9: Top match again :S 7.60
Match 10: Yet to lookup 7.60
There is also a distant cousins at 7.10.

There are other matches higher than 7GD but I will look them up later. There are two matches to the sister and cousin of match 4 on HIR but not on 23andme. So what is going on? I can only think that because the Decodeme data contains more information, HIR is picking up what 23andme simply doesn't test. I have compared the locations of these matches on the chromosomes and where they do, they match.

What is interesting is the trends in where sharing occurs-there is a part of chromosome 1 that is very commonly shared with other users so I am discounting this as something ancient for the time being.
Also on part of chromosome 15 there is a shared segment between one person who is described as Ukrainian Jewish, one who is German and one who is partly of German descent.

A new plot!

2010-09-26T03:11:00.001-07:00

I submitted my relatives Decodeme data to a project which plots you onto a map, just like the map of kinship at Decodeme and the global similarity at 23andme.
The person who runs the project has revealed that my relative is situated initially at first glance within the Orkney sample cluster, but when the image is viewed three dimensionally, she also appears near Poles. Similarly, she scores highly on the project genome similarity feature with Poles, Brits and Scandinavians. I think this is reflecting the fact that she is half British by placing her with Orkney samples but the fact she is drifting towards Poles, again like Decodeme, suggests to me she has Slavic ancestry too.
If you are interested in seeing where you fit on the plot, then see the site below:
http://bga101.blogspot.com/

So results from all tests so far are:
Decodeme: Matches to Britain, Ireland, Poland, Ukraine, Russia. Map of kinship: Between East/West Europe.

HIR search: Matches to Britain, Ireland, Germany, Ukrainian Jew.

23andme: Relative finder matches: Colonial American, Hungarian/Romanian (some Jewish), possible Ashkenazi Jew-Haplogroups/surname.
Ancestry finder: British, Irish, Swedish, Swiss, German, Norwegian. A Jewish match at 4GP and several at 1GP including Polish/Israeli/Romanian, Polish/Ukrainian and relative above from Hungary/Romania.
Global similarity: In English and Irish boxes, near Germans.

Eurogenes: Plot-Orkney/Polish, genome similarity: US, Polish, Irish, Swedish, Norwegian, English.

Actual ancestry: 50% British (of which most English and about 1% Irish! Could be some more Irish but hard to verify) 50% unknown American.

I can see a trend forming....

Relatives found!

2010-09-12T09:26:00.000-07:00

Thanks to 23andme, it appears that I have some genuine US relatives afterall! I'm still in the process of contacting them (there's over 200 and when you can only contact 5 a day you can see what a lengthly process this will be!) still, there are some who have got back to me.
A 4th cousin has ancestors around the PA area, lots of colonial British and Germans and their surnames do not match surnames in my known British ancestry so we can assume the connection really is via the US, and one 5th cousin is Hungarian!!!
Even if surnames can't be shared to find a connection, the pattern of regions that my relatives ancestors came from will hopefully give me an idea as to my own ancestry on my US side.
I'm trying not to jump the gun, but I have noticed that some 5th cousins have Jewish and Middle Eastern haplogroups, although I know that these are only two lines (Y and MtDNA) out of many within someone's tree.
It seems that from these few contacts, they do seem to tie in with Decodeme's map of kinship and their genetic affinity feature.
I'm hoping to compile a list of every relative and their origins and will put it on here soon!

DNA tests to fill in gaps

2010-06-29T04:09:00.000-07:00

DNA tests have come on in leaps and bounds over the last few years and what is especially pleasing is the introduction of autosomal tests that tell you about every side of your family tree not just direct male relatives from your father's side or direct female relatives from your mother's side.
A while back, one of my direct relatives did the full test from Decodeme and it revealed we have some Eastern European ancestry using it's Map of Kinship feature which places you on a map of the world and you compare your position to those of other nationalities.
The image above is a snapshot of the European view of the Map of Kinship. It is very hard to get a proper view of where each person (represented by their countries flag of origin) sit on the map 2 dimensionally because this map can be rotated 3 dimensionally. I added arrows to show the trend of countries. Western Europeans are in blue going south and Eastern Europeans are in red going north. The two people next to my relative in pink are Polish and Polish descent. When the image is rotated, it appears my relative is drifting towards Eastern Europeans.
To back this up they were able to compare themselves to other customers using the genetic similarity tool and their top matches were to Britain, Russia, Poland, Belarus and Ukraine!

My relative is half British half unknown US and even more exciting was discovering on the advanced genome browser that she shares a segment with two people exactly in the same place who are of Ukrainian/Polish/Hungarian Ashkenazi descent together with another person who overlaps slightly who's ancestors lived in Hungary. They themselves have had a match to Ashkenazis but didn't think they had any Jewish ancestry.

A free database now exists where you can upload your Decodeme data. HIR search compares you to other people on it's database to find relatives. After some fiddling around with it, my relatives top matches are to people of British, German, Polish, Dutch and Ashkenazi origin! Not by massive amounts-I think we are talking 5th-10th cousins-but it's just another piece of evidence of unlocking the unknown American origins!

Fascinating stuff and even more exciting is the possibility of finding relatives through DNA testing. 23andme and FamilytreeDNA now both do a family/relative finder tool that puts you in touch with potentially fairly recent relatives. Both can also be uploaded to the HIR search site. Now I just need to decide which test to go for!
http://hirs.snpology.com/

The Swift family Nottingham

2009-08-23T11:06:00.000-07:00

Trying to find out more about the Swift family, in particular from Sneinton/St Ann's, Nottingham. The earliest ancestor I have found was born in Shepshed, Leicestershire, and moved to Nottingham. Have some information that I'm willing to share.
Would love to hear from any current Swifts who have ancestors from the areas mentioned above to find out more about the family, especially if they remember a Harold Swift, as I'm trying to find out about his time before and after WW1. He also told his nursing home carers that he was related to boxer, Wally Swift and would teach his Grandchildren (not Wally's!) to spa, so would love to know whether there is some truth in this.
Leave a message or email
ukusaroots-swifts/at/yahoo/dot/co/dot/uk

Elliot family St Mary's parish Nottingham

2009-06-09T11:22:00.000-07:00

I am searching for information about an ancestor of mine, John Elliot who married Elizabeth and had 2 children-Elizabeth in 1700 and Joshua in 1705 in St Mary's parish Nottingham. John's descendants worked as Framework knitters until about 1850.
I can't find anything else about John and Elizabeth, so if you are also a descendant or can help, please get in touch!

Elliott ancestors and a famous person!

2009-06-09T11:00:00.000-07:00

I have a famous ancestor. Well he was interviewed and now appears on Google books. To me that's famous! He was a successfull Framework knitter and trained John Heathcote-"Who?!" I hear you cry, well he invented a bobbin lace machine. Very handy in 1809.
Anyway, it seems that Leonard's brother, Joshua (named after their Grandfather), was a trustee for Nottingham entrepaneur, George Africanus, who came from Sierra Lione as a slave and managed to buy his freedom and became very successfull in Nottingham.
On the BBC Nottingham website it says:
"Just after his marriage George and Esther founded the Africanus' Register of Servants, an employment agency which remained a family business for more than 70 years.

George Africanus was also involved in Watch and Ward, a sort of police force responsible for preventing civil disturbances.

In 1829 he became a "freeholder", owning his own family home as well as business premises and accommodation he rented out."

It is these business premises that Joshua was trustee of.

Perhaps to the readers of this, it is no big deal. But to me I am very proud of Leonard and Joshua for their achievements and in Joshua's case for being clearly a person of support and trust to George, I can only think that Leonard was a similar person and will be looking into this family in more detail!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2007/02/08/george_africanus_dedication_feature.shtml

Alex Johnson

2009-02-28T08:35:00.001-08:00

Looking for Alex Johnson a US serviceman who most possibly stationed in Lancashire (BAD2?) England between 1942-1944. Visited Nottingham regularly. May have been stationed in Edinburgh or Leicestershire. He played the piano and went back to the States after his service.

Did you know Elsie Swift?

2009-02-28T08:29:00.000-08:00

I am putting a few "can you help?" posts on here as I have some relatives who are not very computer literate (I'm struggling with being blog literate but hey) who would like to find out about certain people and have hit brick walls.

The first is Elsie Swift. She lived in St Ann's, Nottingham, England, and during WW2 she served in the A.T.S. between 1941 and 1944 as a cook all over the country including Preston, Lancashire.

My relative would like to get in contact with anyone who knew her either during the war or before/afterwards.

Welcome!

2009-02-28T08:21:00.000-08:00

Hi,
Welcome to my blog! I've never done one of these before, but I'm hoping to do my blog all about tracing my family tree as well as some other thoughts on other interests of mine. We'll see!